Talk:Fermentation in winemaking

How high can the concentration of Ethanol get, before it becomes toxic to the yeast? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 (talk) 02:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeast inoculation

I don't see any mention in this article about the inoculation process to kill the wild yeast before the cultured yeasts are introduced. -Amatulic 00:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It is up to the winemaker (and I suspect there are some regional differences in regards to the ambient yeasts) but at least up here in the Pacific Northwest the ambient yeast is not really killed. The cultured yeast sort of dominate and take over with work of the ambient yeast being downplayed. Double checking with my sources, I also don't see any reference in them about killing the wild yeast as well. But feel free to include information with any source you may have. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 01:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The handful of California winemakers I've asked all inoculate the wild yeast to control the process (except for one who doesn't inoculate at all because he's fortunate to have good wild yeast in his fields, and you can taste the difference). The impression I got from these conversations was that the wild yeast is killed or dominated to extinction. -Amatulic 17:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "inoculation process". Usually that refers to actually adding the cultured yeast to the must. A lot of winemakers do add sulfites to the wine to kill/stun the wild yeast, although the studies indicate that at the levels of SO₂ that are used, it has little effect on most species of wild yeast, and no effect on the total growth. It's actually the vigor of the cultured yeast (if added) that overuns and kills the wild yeasts. Most winemaking books tend to tell you to add the sulfites to kill the wild yeast, but the microbiological journals for example, this one tend to differ from the "common thinking" of winemakers. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 21:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments

I would like to have a explanation of primary and secondary fermentation, I'm not sure what the difference is!!!! Also why is fermentation written with uppercase in the lead section?? --Stefan ^talk 00:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In a lot of ways "secondary fermentation" is sort of a misnomer. It's actually the same fermentation process (no new yeast or sugars), but the wine is transfered to a secondary container (usually an oak barrel or a stainless steel tank). Usually one that the winemaker can better control the wine's interaction with oxygen. This is done because the open vats/barrels that the fermentation starts in become a problem later in the process when it slows down, and less carbon dioxide is coming off the wine. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 00:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Review

Just after this article was started, Agne asked me, as a chemist, to review the article. Well, I am a chemist, but very much at the rarefied physical.theoretical side of the discipline and my knowledge of organic chemistry and biochemistry is rather weak. First, I have gone through making a whole lot of very small changes such as changing capital letters to small letters. Feel free to reverse any of these if you think I am wrong. Second, the broader issues. I think this article does a great job. The technical chemical details are rightly left to Ethanol fermentation and Fermentation (biochemistry). The coverage is good. It is well referenced. Well done. A small point - is "the "barnyard aroma" characteristic in some red wines like Burgundy Pinot noir" restricted to Pinot noir from Burgundy or is it found in Pinot noir from elsewhere? Indeed there seems to be a few points where reference to French wine production might be generalized to many countries, if indeed the point at issue relates to the wine variety and not the country. Apologies that this has taken time. Agne asked me just after I got back from a trip to London from Australia and I have been rather busy and laid low with a virus I suspect I caught on the flight. I have a colleague in the university who used to work in a wine institute. I will ask him to comment, when I see him next. --Bduke 02:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I really appreciate the review. I'll look into more about some of the country references. I mostly stuck with my sources though things like personal experience, (I've had many of barnyard-y Pinots from Oregon) differ from the quaint generalization. A common theme I've found among most wine resources is that they tend to focus on the "classic descriptions" and generalizations even though the word of wine is filled with more shades of gray then what just the "classics" would portray. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 09:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

References

This has been added to the references section: == Headline text == This process has its tricks, if you let the wine rest for a coupe of days it would taste different or maybe a little strange as if you let it rest for weeks, months, or even years.

I have no idea where the editor who added it really wanted to put it so I have moved it here. --Bduke 04:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that is a little odd. I think what they are talking about is extended maceration after fermentation is complete or maybe just plain old fashion bottle/barrel aging. Both possibilities really don't necessary belong in the fermentation article. It probably should be expanded and clarified for relevance with a reliable source before it would go back into the article.

Photos/Diagrams

Are there more illustrations available related to the wine-elaboration process relating to fermentation? (For example, ritual dancing connected to use of feet in the traditional-press process, ethnographies on this topic and/or accounts from antiquity?) Miraclebaby (talk) 05:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure about images from antiquity. But we can certainly request some diagrams of the process with the Project Greenspun Intiative. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 08:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

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WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

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Wine can be made out of all manner of fruits not just grapes

The article, although informative, skips the fact that wine can be made from virtually any fruit. Also, primary and secondary fermentation is not explained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.246.65.253 (talk) 15:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The legal definition of "wine" in most countries is a "grape-based product". Otherwise it is needs to be preface with a description like fruit wine, rice wine etc. Also, primary and secondary fermentation are mentioned in the lead paragraph. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:58, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Agne is wrong. The TTB has the following definition of "wine":

1. For purposes of taxation, registry, bonding and reports:

When used without qualification, the term includes every class and type of product, produced on a bonded wine premises, from grapes, other fruit (including berries), or other suitable agricultural products. It contains not more than 24 percent of alcohol by volume. The term includes all imitation, other than standard, or artificial wine and compounds sold as wine. A wine product containing less than one-half of one percent alcohol by volume (0.5%) is not taxable as wine when removed from the bonded wine premises. See 27 CFR 24.10.

Ultimately though, it does not matter how "wine" is defined by some country or another. This article is about "winemaking" and that is the term used to describe the making of wine no matter where the fermentable sugar comes from. "Winemaking" is the thing that happens at a winery. We don't have an article for "berry winemaking" or "honey winemaking" or "peach winemaking." Nor should we. One winemaking article should be enough granted its scope actually gives respect the vast world of possibilities beyond grapes.

2605:E000:151D:64E8:2843:6E7C:9CD:7202 (talk) 01:59, 18 March 2019 (UTC)Chris

References

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Fermentation (wine) → Fermentation in winemaking – Or something similar. According to our disambiguation page, fermentation, at Wikipedia every instance of fermentation is treated as if it were a distinct thing sharing a name with all the others. It shoud be made clearer that this is not an article about something distinct from Fermentation (biochemistry), but about that chemical process as it takes place during the production of wine. I have also proposed moves at Talk:Fermentation (biochemistry) and Talk:Fermentation (food). I have not made this a multi-page request because I believe the rationale stands on its own for each. Srnec (talk) 00:15, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Neutral I wouldn't mind the move as long as the Fermentation (wine) dab stays redirecting to this article since that is an immensely valuable link and will undoubtedly stay the way that the vast majority of articles are linked to this page. Though to that effect you have to wonder if the move is even needed. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:35, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Neutral - Perhaps the material would be better served merging into Winemaking? Just seems rather obivious to me.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move to a new name per nom as well as the other two related proposed moves. Wine fermentation is not a distinct meaning of "fermentation" but an aspect of biochemical fermentation. Although the material here could be merged into winemaking, that article is already quite long and this article is not insignificant. Instead, consider moving some material in the fermentation sections here. —  AjaxSmack  05:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The image of grapes with "bloom" on them

In this article it says the white substance called bloom is yeast. However, someone changed the image description on Commons to indicate that it is in fact a substance that the grape itself produces called epicuticular wax "and is neither yeast nor another fungus." I searched online and found this [1]:

It’s mostly harmless wax, says Kay Bogart, a winemaker who works in outreach for the University of California at Davis’s viticulture program. The grape plant produces it to protect the berries from moisture loss. It’s also often just plain old dust, adds Jim LaMar, a professor of wine sensory evaluation at California State University, Fresno. Until recently, winemakers believed the white stuff was yeasts, responsible for wine fermentation. Now they believe such yeasts are airborne. In any case, that white stuff isn’t pesticide residue. Which is not to say that there isn’t pesticide residue on the grape, so wash it anyway before you pop it into your mouth.

and also the same for blueberries [2].

Wiki Education assignment: Wines and Vines Practicum

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 January 2024 and 6 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lgv23 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Lgv23 (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)