|WikiProject Mythology||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
It's not quite clear to me why the page says Balkan in reference to crnobog. Shouldn't it say South Slavic languages? Or is it the same in the Sprachbund or something? --Shallot 22:38, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it should. Don't know how it's written in Bulgarian though. Nikola 01:21, 16 Jul 2004 (
- It could also be Črno in Slovene. But regardless.
- Also, the reference to rhyme with "There-are-not" sounds English, so I've slightly rephrased that bit too. --Shallot 12:19, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Also, I'd rename the page to "Black God" or something like that to avoid picking one semi-randomly chosen spelling. Anyone against it? --Shallot 22:39, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Not used anywhere AFAIK. The spellings of all Slavic gods will become an issue once there are more and better articles on them. Nikola 01:21, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I would say leave the naming as is unless and until it actually manifests as some sort of problem. The name means "black god", but that doesn't mean that "black god" in English is a good title for the page - David Gerard 10:18, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I know that even though the etymology doesn't quite fit, however, I'd like to give it a try. Is it in any way possible that Crnobog(even though knowledge about him is meager, and there is a possibility that he may not even have been an actual god, and may just have been an error simple misinformation or fakelore akin to the Germanic Eoster) is related to either the Celtic Cernunnos or the Greek Cronus? And may have been misinterpreted by Christian writers, akin to how Pan and Cernunnos was identified with Satan? He sounds atleast in some way similar to the Latvian Ceroklis, or at least Cernunnos does. Though I realize that there is a possibility that, if a god akin to Cernunnos or Pan even existed in Slavic mythology, that accounts of him may be lost forever. But, as of now, except for the Leszi, do we know of any important woodland spirit or shepherd god or good of the wild at all? Satanael 21:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- The name of Crnobog simply means Black god, with crn (chrn) meaning black. I'm not sure about Cernunnos, but I think his name ultimately derives from some word related to horns, PIE *k'ern, which in Latin would be cornus (interestingly enoguh, there was a saint called Cornelius which seems to have neatly replaced Cerunnos after Christianization). Thus, the words are completly unrelated AFAIK. However, a god fairly akin to both Cerunnos and Pan in Slavic mythology was Veles, horned serpentine diety of underwrold and cattle. Now, it is possible (but mind you, this is my own speculation and not a generaly recognised or even verified fact proper for an encyclopedic article) that Veles was in fact Crnobog. Veles was, in post-Christian times, most often associated with Devil, and though he was not de facto evil god, he had a tendency to create mischief to both gods and men and could punish with diseases when angered (in other words, as Helmold would put it, he would brought woe and misfortune). Furthermore, in some late Czech sources, the name Veles is equated with words zmey (dragon) and chrt (Ky jest chrt, aneb ky Veles, aneb ky zmek te proti mene zbudil?, "What is the chrt, and what Veles, and what dragon that turned you against me?"). The word chrt, used as synonym for Veles and dragon, simply means devil, however, it is likely identical to word chrn, "black". Thus, Veles was both a dragon and he was "black"; so Chrnobog, black god, could be additional name for Veles. Another name which was definately used as epithet of Veles ((in Russian sources)) was skotji bog, "cattle god"; this is similar to Crnobog in as much that it also contains sufix -bog, "god" . --Hierophant 23:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Still, considering that Czech 15th century script, Veles was assimilated into Christianity as a saint (it's St.Vlaho in Croatia, i think that should be St.Basil in english), so comparing a practical saint to the Devil sounds weird. The dragon was however, the aspect of Črt (Zmaj Ognjeni), so I would presume Veles was accidentaly mentioned here, as some "pagan god" which has to be evil in Christian perspective, and should not be used to draw a parallel to Crnobog or Črt. --Hand of Bjesomar 18:39, 11 March 2006
- There wasn't exactly a defined pattern of assimilating old gods into new Christian religion; these things happened quite unintentionaly. Veles's characteristics, for instance, were passed on at least two different saints, St. Blaise and St. Nicholas. His more negative aspects were associated with dragons, devils and demons. There are acctualy several Czech sources which mention Veles as some sort of devil or dragon-like monster, and furhtemore, it is also indicative that the devil of Baltic mythology is known as Velinas, and that the huge dragon Vritra of Rigveda is sometimes also called Vala; both names are very closely related to Proto-Slavic (and, possibly, Proto-Indo-European) Veles. Thus, associating Veles with dragons or devils is by no means an accident! However, as I said clearly, that Veles was in fact Crnobog is my own hunch, nothing more; that's why I didn't wrote something like that in article! Which leads me to ask you, from what '"newer"' sources did you get that piece of information about Crnobog, Morana and Bjesomar waging war against Svantevit, Svarog, and Perun? That seem fairly questionable to me, to say the least. -Hierophant 19:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, it is very questionable, adding it to the article was a mistake. And i must admit Veles, being the god of underworld is more "demonic" then for example, Perun. Also, being the god of cattle, I can pull a parallel with the christian symbolism of the goat being demonic, and thus associate Veles with Satan via this line. --Hand of Bjesomar 21:01, 11 March 2006
Shouldn't there be some mention (unless I missed it) of Czernobog's association with winter? (compared to Bielebog's association with summer) Or am I totally off-base and this relation doesn't exist? :) -email@example.com 14:20, 20 March 2006 (PST)
- I don't know any indications whatsoever that Chernobog was conected with winter in any way. I think this relation is a pure fantasy. In fact, if there indeed existed a Belobog that was opposed to Chernobog (Helmold does not mention Belobog, nor does any other historic or etnhographic sources), it would seem more likely that Belobog was a god of winter; at least the color symbolism would fit. Snow is, as I recall, white, not black, and also, in symbolism of pre-Christian mythologies, white is a color of death (being the color of bones), not black. --Hierophant 10:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Czernebock is also known in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, some old ppl may know him (mostly speakers of "Ostniederdeutsch"). He is mentioned in mostly superstitious ways or in curses, my grandpa telled about him as a deamon in figure of a black goat and used sometimes superstitious gestures to avoid him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Crnobog vs. Chernobog vs. Czernobog
Chernobog is much more common used in English language sources, so I moved the article.
- Crnobog: web: 538, google print 1, in a Croatian book.
- Chernobog web:21,400, google print 27
- Czernobog web: 14,500, google print 7
bogdan 09:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
"do zla boga"
Can this phrase perhaps mean simply 'in spite of God?' i.e. a variation of the phrase of 'na zlo?' I have actually seen American translators embarass themselves by translating this idiom literally as 'to be wicked' rather then 'in spite of' on several occasions. Your thoughts?
-Yevgeny the Mad Russian (unregistered and insane rather than simply angry to avoid misunderstandings)220.127.116.11 21:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
- No-one is really aware of the literal meaning of these words anymore; exclamations such as Ovo je do zla boga dosadno!, To je do zla boga glupo! can be safely translated as "This is devilishly boring!", "That is immensely stupid!" without any actual loss in meaning. This translation is however losing actual meaning, because in Slavic language there are common curses used in the middle of the sentence. To je do zla boga glupo! can be translated as "Damn! This is stupid!"
The two sentences contradict each other. Also, in the last sentence, a better translation may be "This is damned stupid", and it respects the order of the words in the original sentence. -Pgan002 (talk) 04:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The "In Popular Culture" section
I marked the popular culture section with the trivia template a few days ago, and on closer inspection, don't really see how to wrap most, if any, of the existing trivia items--most of which are to video game appearances, with a couple as appearances in literature--into the article itself in any meaningful way. I hate to say, "scrap the section," but I just don't see what they bring to the article. Exerda (talk) 17:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" Czernobog says that bielebog is in fact his brother. He explains that his brother was blond (therefore considered the good one) and he himself had dark hair (considered "the rogue"). Now they both have grey hair and are quite hard to keep apart. --Kaylee Fry (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CherryhChernevogHCover.jpg would be suitable to include on the page? Though it doesn't particularly illustrate a common image of Chernobog, (as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chernabog1.jpg perhaps does,) but I think this article's quality would be improved by a picture of some sort. --Unnatural20 (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I seriously don't see what some of you guy's problem is with expanding the "In popular culture" section, the way I see it the point of the section is encyclopedic cultural studies. How Slavic mythology still appears in modern western culture, and how the myth is modified into modern times by modern storytellers. I also don't see the anti-video game bias that seems to be here (only saying that "he appears in a lot of video games"), just because Chernobog appears a lot in video games, doesn't mean that his appearances in them are less notable than in film or novels. If you think about it, it should make video game Chernobogs more notable. Also, given that the article is hardly long, I think that talking about Chernobog from a modern cultural perspective to be beneficial to the article. Just my two cents. Comrade Graham (talk) 20:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
the following two sentences seem to me to be the work of a vandal, aside being not entirely correct: "A very old diety thanks to the fact that the slavic where one of the oldest in europe!A simple correction the slavic tribes where at the terrytorys of modern Bulgaria and the surrounding countrys!" Therefore I will delete it. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Slavic != Russian
The first sentence now begins
- Chernobog (also spelled Crnobog, Czernobóg, Černobog, Црнобог or Zernebog from the Russian Чернобог ...)
Of course these spellings are not all from Russian! Perhaps it could be written something like
- Chernobog (Russian), Czernobóg (Polish), ...