Talk:Turning Point USA

1964 Civil Rights Act and Martin Luther King Jr section

Just removed the first sentence from "1964 Civil Rights Act and Martin Luther King Jr." section. The removed content was only applicable to Charlie Kirk, no relevance to TPUSA (As well as being from an Esquire WP:RSOPINION source as well as the quoted info was only found in the WP:HEADLINE. I'm concerned that the rest of the section isn't really relatable to TPUSA either, I mean the remainder of the information in said section discusses comments made by Kirk, one being made at Americafest. To clarify, just because Charlie Kirk made a comment at Americafest about MLK, it doesn't warrant inclusion on the TPUSA article. Coverage of the remark is singularly sourced and is not notable (A more and more common trait to this article). The remainder of the information in the section is not significant information either(Kirk previously liking MLK as well as TPUSA selling MLK T-shirts online are not notable). I think we should remove the rest of the section it doesn't really belong in this article. Eruditess (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of this reasoning; when articles about the founding leader of an organization expressing extreme views also draw attention to the leader's organization, I think it seems ok for at least a single sentence mention in organization's article.

There is certainly more than one source in existence that makes this connection too. Just came here after reading several articles about it. I may not get around to adding it but wanted to express skepticism publicly. toobigtokale (talk) 21:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your input, I would challenge the idea that there are lots of quality reliable sources covering Kirk's remarks, and that Kirk's remarks are as you said "extreme views".

When I did a google search of "Charlie Kirk Civil Rights", The first article is a WP:GREL Wired.com article, (It's the one sole cited article in the problematic Civil Rights section currently referencing one relatable fact; that Kirk made the remarks at the TPUSA Americafest event). The following google search results were a litany of either articles that directly cited the Wired.com article as their source and/or were opinion pieces. With all the sources being opinion pieces and/or based off the only reliable article that is already included here, I can't agree with you that there is a lot of quality coverage from reputable sources.

As for the idea that he holds "extreme views", I think that since it doesn't actually state anywhere in the RS that his views are extreme inferring that they are extreme would be original research/WP:SYNTH. Kirk had opinions about MLK jr. -“MLK was awful,” Kirk said. “He's not a good person. He said one good thing he actually didn't believe.” He has opinions about the Civil Rights acts. Saying “We made a huge mistake when we passed the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s.” I stand beside my previous statements above, the section has nothing to do with TPUSA, I can't entertain the idea that Kirk's quotes are extreme views and that it improves the TPUSA article in any way. Eruditess (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I added NBC News, another WP:GREL source. Llll5032 (talk) 04:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding this NBC article just supports my argument for removal off this page even further.

The basis of this discussion is that the "1964 Civil Rights Act and Martin Luther King Jr" section is about Charlie Kirk's remarks regarding the section subject matter, which has zero relevance to TPUSA. This NBC article doesn't make any connection for the comments made about MLK/Civil Rights acts and TPUSA. It does however highlight that the comments were made on Charlie Kirks PodCast, separate entity from TPUSA. Llll5032, can you justify how an article saying Kirk made comments on his personal podcast belongs on TPUSA article?

Your addition of: "Some Republicans criticized racial comments by Kirk amidst conflicts in early 2024 between Turning Point and Republican Party leaders." is breaching WP:SYNTH, it doesn't state that Republican party leaders had issue with TPUSA anywhere in the article. The article does say that Darrel Scott "expressed concerns" to Trump about Kirks comments (the ones made on his podcast), that is it. Eruditess (talk) 20:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

The NBC article, which names Turning Point 18 times, cites disputes with various Republicans about Ronna McDaniel, an app, and Kirk's conduct and comments. Llll5032 (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

In those 18 times Turning Point was mentioned, there is not any mention or connection from those Republicans making criticism of Kirk with TPUSA? That is why you trying to add a sentence in the article that there was, when there isn't is SYNTH. You took two separate facts:

1)That Charlie Kirk made comments on his podcast about MLK jr and the Civil rights act.

&

2)That some republicans think that some funds that went to TPUSA could have been funds that could have been put towards the republican party.

These two facts are different form eachother.

The information about Ronna McDaniel talks about her meeting with Trump and asking him if he was aware of his comments from Kirk's pod cast? -- No mention of TPUSA.

The app is mentioned about Tyler Bowyer and in connection to Turning Point Action -- No mention of TPUSA

Kirk's conduct and comments... From his pod cast -- no mention of TPUSA.

Can you show me where in the NBC article it states TPUSA is under pressure because of Kirks comments... I think that is what you are trying to interpret from the article.

Just copy and paste the quote that links the two. Eruditess (talk) 02:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The short sentence you removed said, "Some Republicans criticized racial comments by Kirk amidst conflicts in early 2024 between Turning Point and Republican Party leaders." It follows the emphasis of the NBC article, which has examples of Kirk's racial comments and also the Turning Point spokesperson acknowledging the conflict with the RNC: "When you take on the RNC, you’re bound to make a few enemies,” Andrew Kolvet, a Turning Point spokesperson, said, adding the organization was “warned” in recent weeks “to brace for” Kirk and the group to take hits “as a parting shot from the old guard at the RNC. Later in the article, the same Turning Point spokesperson also makes a statement defending Kirk. Llll5032 (talk) 04:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused by your claim that there is supposedly no connection whatsoever between a group's founding leader and his group. Articles that discuss this event very frequently mention his role in TPUSA. toobigtokale (talk) 21:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

If you are saying that reliable articles discuss Kirk's role, then you can put whatever is said about his role in the article. If you can find WP:RS articles that make a direct connection for as you said, "the founding leader of an organization expressing extreme views also draw attention to the leader's organization", put it in by all means. But I can't find any actual quote from the cited sources that say there is a connection (the word "extreme views" isn't even printed in the source), that is a determination you made after reading the article. There is coverage about Kirk critiquing MLK jr. and the civil rights act on his podcast, but to make an editorial choice to say in this TPUSA wiki article that because he made comments on his podcast, it is affecting the organization would be SYNTH - ("do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.") it just isn't stated in any reliable article. Eruditess (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is saying there's no connection between a group's founding leader and his group. The question at hand is whether or not Kirk's comments should be put on Turning Point USA's page. Comments made on Kirk's podcast seem far more fitting to be put on his own page, rather than this organization, especially considering that The Charlie Kirk Show is not part of Turning Point USA (as his page even states). I'd agree this section should be removed but the comments by Kirk be put on his own page. AstralNomad (talk) 17:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Someone is saying that. "The removed content was only applicable to Charlie Kirk, no relevance to TPUSA"

I'm not engaging much more with this topic because it's not a high priority for me, but my skepticism about this has not changed. toobigtokale (talk) 20:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty simple and straight forward, if the information added to an article directly pertains to subject of the article (in this case TPUSA) then add it, if not keep it out. There has been previous discussion on this talk page (When Charlie Kirk was being split out to his own article) that set precedence that stuff that he says or does as head of TPUSA should be listed here and stuff that he says as his own personal opinions or rants belong on his personal page. I think there was an issue with editors clogging this page with every single provocative thing Kirk said and so it has been addressed. Move the MLK and civil race comments to his page. Keep Kirk's personal views off this page. MaximusEditor (talk) 07:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

For WP:DUEWEIGHT the decision should be based on how much the cited RS say about Turning Point. If Turning Point is named with substantial context in the reliable source, then the source is likely to belong in this article. Turning Point is named 18 times in the NBC article and 7 times in the Wired article, so they appear to be DUE. Llll5032 (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Llll5032, DUEWEIGHT says "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those source". The keyword here is "viewpoints". Not "words". The word "Turning Point" alone isn't a viewpoint, therefore a word use count per this NBC article has no relevance in a section labeled "1964 Civil Rights Act and Martin Luther King Jr section", specifically in this case unless there is a sentence that contains both Turning Point and "Civil Rights Act" and/or "MLK Jr". There is not. Not once is there anywhere in the NBC article that references Turning Point USA and anything to do with the Civil Rights Act and/or MLK Jr. Therefore to include it in this article as such would be WP:SYNTH. Trying to use this NBC article to give weight to somehow link comments Charlie Kirk made to TPUSA is flat out false and out of context. DUEWEIGHT is only applicable with correct context. Having said that, does it belong on Charlie Kirk's personal page. Yes absolutely.

WP:CONTEXTMATTERS says " The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content." & " Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article". Talking about how many times the word "TPUSA" is used is void of context period.

Also we can refer to WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, which states " Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what the sources express or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources." " Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article".

Now the NBC article does have context with comments made on Charlie Kirk's podcast. "As Turning Point USA flourishes, Kirk simultaneously has another venture that is making waves throughout the right — his podcast. A Turning Point spokesperson provided NBC News with internal data showing that it is being downloaded between 500,000 and 750,000 times each day. It’s ranked No. 13 on Apple Podcasts for news." Information about comments made on Kirk's podcast belongs on Charlie Kirk's personal page. TPUSA article is not improved by quoting Kirk's podcast comments. Removing the content and moving it over to Charlie's personal page is a great compromise based in previous discussion and precedence on this talk page. I will be removing the content and moving it over to Kirk's page. MaximusEditor (talk) 19:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree that information needs to stick to the emphasis of cited sources per WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Because at least one of the WP:BESTSOURCES, NBC, describes the racial comments in the context of Turning Point's conflict with the RNC and McDaniel, perhaps the information could be better included in a chronology of the group instead of specifically a civil rights section. Llll5032 (talk) 23:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Additional WP:GREL sources have described Turning Point's part in the successful effort to oust McDaniel and its conflicts with some Republicans this year, which were in the sentence that was deleted. Llll5032 (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Turning Point has no direct association with the RNC or the Republican Party because they are a non-profit. TPUSA is a 501c3 organization, and the IRS states that such organizations are prohibited from "directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)(3)_organization

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/the-restriction-of-political-campaign-intervention-by-section-501c3-tax-exempt-organizations#:~:text=Under%20the%20Internal%20Revenue%20Code,candidate%20for%20elective%20public%20office.

TPUSA has an obvious conservative agenda, but saying that the organization is tied with the RNC is an incorrect statement and would be against the law for them to do so. If Charlie Kirk is making comments about the RNC, the Republican party, or making endorsements of a political candidate, that is his own personal belief and cannot be representative of TPUSA itself. These respective Wikipedia pages should reflect that difference. AstralNomad (talk) 19:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Do any of the secondary RS describing the conflict over McDaniel address that question? Llll5032 (talk) 00:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

TPUSA can't make political statements and can't get into "conflicts" with the RNC. This is common sense. However, Turning Point Action can, that is why we have a separate article for information pertaining to Turning Point Action. You do not want to put erroneous information on this article that could confuse readers into thinking TPUSA was breaching its non-profit 501(c)(3) status.

From the AP article you linked/cited the author of the article does not make it clear that the "Restoring National Confidence" event (which is the reference between the vague "Turning Point" and the RNC" in the article) was hosted by TPACTION. Which is cleared up by this Politco article which gives correct context. With that correct context, any information you want to include about Turning Point being in conflict with the RNC belongs on the Turning Point Action page not here and any information that pertains to comments made on Charlie Kirk's podcast belong on his personal article also not here. So I'll be removing the "Civil rights act/MLK" section and moving the content over to Kirk's page. MaximusEditor (talk) 22:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

As you acknowledge, RS often do not make the distinction between the groups that you are making. Even in the Politico source you cite favorably, the naming is mostly "Turning Point", for example: "Turning Point, the youth-oriented advocacy group founded by Charlie Kirk, the conservative activist radio show host with a massive following, has long been one of the sharpest thorns in the RNC’s side." Editors were divided about making a separate Turning Point Action article in 2021 because of the interconnectedness of the groups. But the creator of the article agreed that "Naturally there is overlap between these two orgs, and I'm definitely for keeping any notable occurrences of overlap on TPUSA", and no editors at that article's talk page, which has included you, have yet disagreed there. Llll5032 (talk) 03:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Tyler Bowyer

As there is currently no Wikipedia article for Tyler Bowyer, this article's sub-section about him is therefore the closest alternative, and already contains assorted biographical information about Bowyer; thus information about him shouldn't be delegated to other articles (e.g. Turning Point Action). It also seems disingenuous to insist on a separation between TPUSA and TPAas one is the parent of the other. Brad (talk) 23:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. RS say he is both a "Turning Point USA executive" and chief operating officer of Turning Point Action, so the information should be in both articles. Llll5032 (talk) 14:48, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing disingenuous about accuracy, TPUSA is not the "Parent" company of Turning Point Action, some people label them as "sister" organizations because Charlie Kirk was at the helm for both of them and they share the "Turning Point" in the name, but one does not have any oversight over the other. Legally TPUSA couldn't have oversight over TPAction, one is a 501(c)3 and TPAction is a 501(c)4. I can understand WP:GOODFAITH assumptions that they are more than that, it is confusing with the same branding in the name. But unless there is specific notation in RS that states both TPUSA & TPAction both were involved in something, it would be irresponsible and just plain false/WP:SYNTH to try and blend the two as one entity on this article. MaximusEditor (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

MaximusEditor, If RS specifically name Turning Point USA about an incident in question, then it is never synthesis or original research to say exactly what they say. Perhaps you could ask the No Original Research board about this question, if the answers from editors here do not suffice for you. Llll5032 (talk) 18:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not challenge any reliable content being sourced that specifically names TPUSA and TPAction in relation to an incident be removed from this article. It isn't up to editors to decide that two legally separate organizations (a 501(c)3 non profit & and a 501(c)4 non-profit) are some how interchangeable. Therefore if a reliable source/article does not expressly state complicit action from TPUSA in a TPAction incident, it does not belong in this article. A description of relation doesn't imply complicity either, if an article says TPAction is the sister organization of TPUSA (and that is the only mention of TPUSA in that article), there isn't enough weight to add it into this article. That would set a dangerous precedence and confuse readers into blatantly inaccurate conclusions. MaximusEditor (talk) 20:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

You're not being accurate, you're splitting hairs by insisting on an unverifiable separation between TPUSA and TPA. They have common leadership. They have the same logo and typeface. Pointing out that TPUSA can't "have oversight" of TPA is the entire reason that action committees like TPA exist in the first place.

From WaPo: "...Turning Point Action, the campaign arm of Charlie Kirk’s Turning Point USA..."

AZ Central: "...Turning Point Action, the nonprofit’s campaign arm."

Brad (talk) 21:28, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

TPUSA on its "staff" page from Dec 21 2020 lists Bowyer as its COO, so it is outright lying to say he was not an officer of TPUSA when he fake electored.

TPUSA on its "Tyler Bowyer" page from Dec 7 2021 says he became COO of TPUSA and "In 2019, he ALSO took on the role of COO of Turning Point Action"

I don't understand how 2 organizations which are not allowed to coordinate can share the same officers.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201221082711/https://www.tpusa.com/staff

https://web.archive.org/web/20211207211301/https://www.tpusa.com/tylerbowyer 74.109.243.144 (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2024 (UTC)