Talk:Bernardino of Siena

Excursus on Savonarola?

I am removing the following as the reference points to Savonarola rather than Bernardino. (A quick search didn’t turn up anything about the latter on the site.)

, such as "cards and dice, fineries of women's dress, looking-glasses, bad books, musical instruments, pictures, and statues." Such behavior has been seen as a want of judgement. [1]

- Ian Spackman 21:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

‘donations to the Holy Name of Jesus’

I am not clear what this phrase means. What was given to what, exactly? Or perhaps ‘donations’ was intended to be ‘devotions’? If anyone can clarify the sentence, that would be good. Here is the context:

It was said that Feuds and factionalism was reconciled by his counsel and that miracles took place, donations to the Holy Name of Jesus (which he preached particularly) increasing dramatically.

- Ian Spackman 21:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

devotions does seem to be a better word. MichelleP12 (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Birthplace

Until today this was given as Massa Marittima, in the province of Grosseto. The new saint box gives it as Massa di Carrea. Asuming that’s a typo it could refer to Province of Massa-Carrara or to Massa di Carrara. Which is correct?

it:San Bernardino da Siena has Massa Marittima. de:Bernhardin von Siena has Province of Massa-Carrara. The Book of Saints (ISBN 0-304-34357-9) favours Massa Marittima. As does santiebeati.it.

So I am changing it to Massa di Carrea to Massa Marittima. But I might of course be wrong… - Ian Spackman 07:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

LGBT studies

I've proposed including this article under the LGBT studies project; not because I'm arguing that Bernardino was homosexual (an intriguing if absurd idea...) But rather because of his significant impact on LGBT issues. His preaching against sodomy in Siena and Florence had a profound impact in historical and geographical terms; and as such is of relevance and interest to LGBT studies. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism

I notice that much of this page is copied word for word from the Catholic Encyclopedia, awkward grammar and all. This should be rewritten.

Hammer Bros. (talk) 00:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"Sodomy"

May I suggest clarifying what Bernardino meant by "sodomy"? Did he mean "anal sex" overall or only "male homosexual anal sex"?

Whichever of these he meant, could the appropriate text be substituted for "sodomy"? The article should certainly gain in specificity and NPOV - and, IMO, Wikipedia should not endorse Bernardino's views by using his language - except when directly quoting him.

Trujaman (talk) 03:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Although it certainly would be interesting - from an historical perspective - to know what precisely was meant here, nevertheless there is no reason to deviated from the wording used in the primary source. Any interpretation can be no more than that, an interpretation, and is thus doomed to be more POV, rather than less. Debresser (talk) 12:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Sodomy redux"

In my view this article is discursive and repetitive, especially the section on sodomy. It belabors the point that sodomy does not equal homosexuality, but isn't that more of a point of interest for the contemporary cultural wars? Emphasizing the issue repeatedly sends the article on an irrelvant tangent.

Furthermore, the focus on sodomy limits the scope of the article. Bernardino was not simply a "missionary" as the article states; he was essentially one of the first evangelists (perhaps the first) with mass appeal, who used new media (print) to hold massive revivals which were as much entertainments as religious sermons. This point is ignored or overlooked, as is the fact that he was an ardent witch hunter who encouraged the execution (at the stake) of natural healers, whom he attacked as witches. The argument ccould be made that Bernardino was a more adent foe of healers than of sodomists; his fervent role in the burning of both sodomists and healers goes unmentioned.

This article would be improved if contributors would look at additional original sources, including The Preacher's Demons by Franco Mormando. --Woodlandpath (talk) 14:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult, if not impossible, to properly interpret the 14th century (or the first, for that matter), with a 21st century frame of mind. MichelleP12 (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

NPOV

I am not arguing so much about the content but the form of presentation, which is not neutral. To use just one word as an example, many religions, and many of their preachers can be called "fanatic" - Religious fanaticism (but they are not in wikipedia), and this is not dealt with in the article. Other sources on "fanaticism" should be cited to assess its "degree" in an appropriate context.

Similarly, to be "completely isolated from society" is close to what should have been done to poets acc. to Plato's Republic - and this is hardly prominent in the article about Plato. And so on; - to sum up, I woudl suggest not to use such a fanatic language in this article even if certain authors, preachers of today, do ;-) WikiHannibal (talk) 01:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. While I agree the need to ensure neutrality, I would want the article to reflect in some way the strength of Bernardino's preaching. His preaching against jews (and others) was designed to stir up hatred so we should address it in the article in direct terms - it's not really the same as the argument made by Plato. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

NPOV - "homophobia", "misogyny"

Hi,

I can't help but object to the article's inflammatory use of the politically-loaded terms "homophobia" and "misogyny". These are terms which have an inherent political bent to them and damage the article's impartiality. I would suggest that the simple statements to the effect of "Savonarolla frequently preached against sodomy" would be sufficient and would avoid altogether any kind of political or ideological bias.

As inflammatory as the bundles of wood that burnt these individuals to death do you think? Contaldo80 (talk) 10:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I would concur that these more political terms are used to be inflammatory. What editing would need to be done? Theanswerman109 (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC) Theanswerman109

These are not "political terms", they are simply apt descriptions. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

"phobic" denotes a fear of something. Bernardino most certainly was not afraid of those engaging in homosexual acts. MichelleP12 (talk) 15:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Copyvio?

in Verona, he approvingly reminded listeners that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates; in Genoa, men were regularly burned; and in Venice a sodomite had been tied to a column along with a barrel of pitch and brushwood and set to fire. He advised the people of Siena to do the same.

"In Verona, he told his hearers that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates. In Genoa, men were regularly burned. He advised the Sienese to do the same. ...in Venice I saw a man tied to a column on high; and a barrel of pitch and brushwood and fire ..." [2] Louis Crompton, Homosexuality and Civilization, p.254. Mannanan51 (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Is there a problem here? Contaldo80 (talk) 08:53, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 2 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

---

Bernardino of Siena → Bernardine of Siena – WP:COMMONNAME; sources may be half-and-half but the Americans speaking English know him uniformly as Bernardine. Catholic Encyclopedia, General Roman Calendar in UK, USCCB liturgical calendar all agree it's "Bernardine". Elizium23 (talk) 15:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. His most common name in English sources is the proposed title. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose "Bernadine" may have been most common in English in the 19th century but it certainly isn't now. He is an important figure in Italian history and purely religious sources should not be used. Johnbod (talk) 23:23, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the very useful NGRAM suggests I was wrong about the 19th century; in fact Bernadino was always more common except between c. 1940 and 1970, and is now hugely so. I've no idea what the source called "General Roman Calendar in UK" by Elizium is, but the "usa" in the web address "https://universalis.com/usa/-700/calendar.htm" shows its clearly American. Johnbod (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Johnbod. I do not think reliable sources written this side of 2000 are even close to half-and-half. Srnec (talk) 03:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and the misleadingly named guideline WP:USEENGLISH. This ngram suggests that "Bernardino of Siena", not "Bernardine of Siena", has been the more prevalent form in English since 1969. Ham II (talk) 11:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. English-language sources use both and this is not American Wikipedia. Bernardino is generally more common today. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose While Wikipedia naming conventions, such as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans)#Article titles, sometimes do allow articles to be named something that is technically "less correct", I do not believe that applies here. Per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME, Bernardino is a fine name as it appears to be more prevelant. Unlimitedlead (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A better profile image

Isn't the profile image supposed to illustrate the subject? The one currently in the article is not doing a good job, as it shows only the face of Bernardino and does not present any of his attributes: the IHS or the three mitres representing the bishoprics he refused. Therefore, an image that shows these attributes should be used instead.  Latin Beau  23:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree - Bernadino is one of the earliest significant saints of whom we have contemporary portraits that actually show a consistent likeness. We are right to use one of these. Thanks to being in the infobox, there isn't much room anyway. Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)