Talk:Baccarat (company)

Updating article

I have noticed several updates to the article which have been reverted. If you have a potential conflict of interest in updating the article, please make your suggestions on this talk page. There are many policies and guidelines which I may be able to help you with. The article does need updating and although you may have a conflict of interest, your ideas, suggestions and comments will help improve the article. Feel free to discuss here or on my talk page. Cheers Gmcbjames (talk) 18:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality concerns

Original heading: "non-neutral biased edits" ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:24, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Reverted the last edits by @Chrma626 as they violate WP:Copyright WP:MOS etc. 45mml.23 (talk) 13:38, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I have now removed content that was problematic for various reasons including plagiarism (Special:Diff/1126140825), citing user-generated content (Special:Diff/1126141056), original research based on primary sources (Special:Diff/1126141476), combining sources into something neither said (Special:Diff/1126141544), and an apparent lack of relevance (Special:Diff/1126141902). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Factual errors and questionable neutrality

Specifically, a recent restore of previously removed and discredited edits by Chrma626 have now been picked up by MartinPict and these new edits have ineligible sources (auction results), sources that do not confirm the assertions made, incorrect information (Pierre Laval, for example, was not ever a Nazi) and reflects a bias toward and imbalance of balanced tone on page with an overemphasis on World War II -related allegations without adequate sources. Keisigei (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

First, I have nothing to do with the Chrma626 account. But the information that you tried to remove from the page, someone has already tried to remove anonymously recently. Was it you? Secondly, I double-checked the sources - the information is easily verifiable - just the facts here. Third, I intend to continue to resist attempts at whitewashing on Wikipedia, anonymous or not. MartinPict (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I am not responsible for those who wanted to make changes anonymously. I can only speak for my own parcels. And they are solid. After all, links to auction results are not relevant links. And the style of presentation tends to be slanderous. The information provided is not confirmed (Pierre Laval, for example, was not ever a Naz). This also contradicts the requirements of Wikipedia. So I am here only to restore justice. Keisigei (talk) 14:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

And you are trying to restore justice by deleting information confirmed by sources?.. Auction data may well be evidence of the existence of what sold at the auction; even more so when they are not the only ones. As for Pierre Laval, no one seems to be claiming that he was a Nazi here. MartinPict (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I just had a look again, after having been invited to do so. What do I see? Alamy and Ebay as sources. I did complain about bad sourcing with links to relevant policies before, see my message from 19:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC) above. WP:BURDEN and WP:ONUS apply, and I can't find the required consensus for including the material here. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

The company seems to be hiring paid editors to whitewash the brand here. This is speculation of course. However, some editors have now entirely deleted the Nazi history again. I gave up Wikipedia after a short time after seeing how easy it was for brands to do this. I am not surprised to see this still happening. Aside from the auction results at issue several individuals have deleted legitimate links (Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Time Magazine et al.) regarding the history of Nazi collaborators within the company (Rene Bousquet and Rene Chambrun). Aside from the legitimate sources that have been removed, here are more possible sources or possible pathways to accepted sources:

http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/archives_pdf/OBS1337_19900621/OBS1337_19900621_012.pdf

https://merviller--autrefois-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2009/10/ce-qui-est-ecrit-20-juin-1940.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

https://www.thirdreicharts.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1900

https://www-dhm-de.translate.goog/datenbank/goering/dhm_goering.php?seite=5&fld_0=RMG02916&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1315981

https://www.dhm.de/datenbank/goering/dhm_goering.php?seite=6&fld_14=Restitution Frankreich: MCSR CXII&fld_14_exakt=exakt&suchen=Suchen

https://academic.oup.com/book/6328/chapter-abstract/150040170?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.histoire-en-questions.fr/deuxieme-guerre-mondiale/bataille-de-france-1940/bataille-france-armistice-prisonniers.html

https://www.granger.com/results.asp?image=0770601&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=1&itemx=4

https://stewross.com/pierre-laval/

https://perspectivia.net/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/pnet_derivate_00004339/European Aristocracies_korrigiert_26_02.pdf

https://www.cappelaere-prunaux.com/en/lot/129033/18931262

https://www.jta.org/archive/alleged-collaborator-in-france-is-indicted-for-wartime-crimes

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-06-09-mn-1260-story.html

http://www.encheres-nantes-labaule.com/vente-aux-encheres/325-nantes-militaria-ventes-en-preparation/110080-fr2gm-petain-francisque-insigne-pp-en-cristal-baccarat-7-cm-tres-bel-etat

https://www.lexpress.fr/informations/rene-bousquet-mort-d-un-collabo_594761.html

https://psi329.cankaya.edu.tr/uploads/files/Gordon (ed), Historical Dictionary of World War II France_ The Occupation, Vichy, and the Resistance, 1938-1946-Greenwood Press (1998).pdf

http://dvpaperweights.org/newsletters/pdf/dvpca_march2003newsltr.pdf Chrma626 (talk) 04:14, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking over the history of edits, the reference to Rene Bousquet was appropriately sourced to an authority site (JTA.org) and could be restored if there is editorial consensus of its relevance. I think it is both relevant and well-sourced.

As for René de Chambrun, (Chairman of Baccarat from 1960 - 1992) he was accused by some of collaborating with Vichy and the sourcing of just that fact is appropriate, but the "list" cited on Wiki was compiled by the editors of Life Magazine based on interviews with some members of the French resistance, so it is not a list in the sense of a historic document, and he was neither tried nor executed so the second portion of that sentence requires some clarification for context and balance, and it is of little relevance to his role in the history of Baccarat which is the point of this page rather than his bio page.

However, and of more concern, the totality of your history of edits on the page is indicative of a particular bias against the company -- even some of the legal cases still included on the page (placed by you prior to your ban from editing the page) are of highly questionable relevance and significance (in terms of monetary settlement size or even consequence) for a global company. The goal is to have a balanced, neutral page, fact-based (even when the facts are distasteful) using legitimate, approved sources that when cited are neutral and when considering the page in its totality includes the tragic period of World War II in the proper context relative to the 260 year history of the company. 2A0D:6FC2:45B0:FF00:882D:BA67:4AF2:245B (talk) 11:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)